Transcribed from the recording, with spelling and names edited for readability. Timestamps are approximate. The transcript preserves the debate; statements in the discussion are not independently established findings.
Read the full 21-minute conversation
0:00 Welcome to the debate. This conversation shows how personal fragrance really is to us as fragrance lovers. It really does I mean just imagine waking up opening your phone and realizing your entire business Your community and your primary source of income have just been wiped out overnight. Oh, wow
0:16 Yeah, a total nightmare, right and why all because you told your followers of you know a 40 pound perfume smells remarkably similar to a 250 pound luxury bottle which happens every single day online exactly So today we are examining a central question drawn from episode 3 of a fragrant conversation
0:34 How can fragrance lovers discuss similarities scent references and affordability whilst Simultaneously respecting creative work and platform policies, which is a massive tightrope to walk right now It is and this debate emerges directly from editorial research regarding creator account removals platform
0:51 Intellectual property policies and the well the rapidly evolving mechanics of the fragrance industry itself I will argue for consumer choice education and creators ability to freely discuss scent references and I will examine the critical need for a creative investment the dangers of
1:07 Misleading comparisons and the stark realities of platform enforcement to truly understand this I think we have to look at the structural reality of the fragrance market today It is notoriously opaque and frankly highly expensive. Oh extremely expensive, right?
1:20 So for the average consumer informed comparisons are an essential tool They they help everyday buyers understanding incredibly complex scent profiles navigate exorbitant pricing and essentially discover accessible options Content creators provide vital education in this space, but is it just education though?
1:36 Well, they act as translators They can break down a luxury niche bottle into understandable notes like explaining what bergamot or oud actually smells like in practice and point consumers towards more accessible alternatives But recently we are seeing this educational ecosystem come under severe threat losing a platform can severely damage a creator's
1:55 livelihood effectively silencing valuable consumer advocacy. I hear that but we cannot just frame this as you know Innocent education versus corporate greed that perfumers and brands invest massive amounts of time Capital and artistic energy into formulation and brand identity true
2:11 But the cost of the consumer by creating a globally recognized fragrance takes years of trial and error comparisons cross a definitive line when they mislead consumers especially of commercial incentives exact match claims or Affiliations are not completely transparent
2:27 Context matters immensely here. Sure context is important But platforms are not just acting as arbitrary censors They have a fundamental right and frankly a strict legal obligation to enforce policies that protect intellectual property from what is often just
2:40 Commercial exploitation masquerading as consumer education, but this legal ambiguity isn't just theory We are seeing it destroy livelihoods. Look at Noel Deyzel right the TikTok situation Exactly his TikTok account was permanently banned and the displayed notice explicitly cited multiple IP policy violations
2:57 Now Noel firmly disputes these violations. Yeah, it was very vocal about that very vocal and the community reaction was immediate and deeply concerned SeekersScent posted an Instagram reel supporting him with the caption Hope you rise stronger and Noel's verified fragrance account actually replied to thank them for the insight and support
3:14 They definitely send shock waves to the creator community. Absolutely and separately We have Elijah Yeroushalmi known to many as Elijah Yero Public reports originating from a search result on his Snapchat account describe his Instagram removal as well as Noel's TikTok ban
3:29 Though we should point out Elijah's exact enforcement grounds remain unverified. Yes unverified But the pattern is alarming. I see why you think that platform protection is necessary But let me give you a different perspective TikTok's own global IP policy
3:43 explicitly distinguishes accurate references reviews and comparisons from actual infringement So aren't we seeing platforms wildly overreaching and stifling legitimate consumer education? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that
3:57 Let me tell you why you are conflating general organic commentary with commercial promotion the mechanics of how Platforms handle these two things are entirely different. How so well TikToks general IP policy absolutely allows for reviews and references Yes
4:12 If you just sit in your bedroom and say I like this perfume you are fine But TikTok shop promotional rules and the mechanics of affiliate linking can differ entirely from general commentary rules But a lot of creators rely on affiliate links just to survive
4:26 I know but when a creator is using a platform's commerce features where they get a kickback for every bottle sold The threshold for what constitutes misleading marketing shifts dramatically Platforms use automated algorithmic moderation. These algorithms look for keyword proximity
4:42 Right, which is a very blunt instrument It is if a video says buy this exact replica of brand X and immediately links to a storefront the system flags it The platform is legally liable if they allow unchecked commercial
4:55 Exploitation of another brand's trademark to generate revenue on their app But that's exactly the problem with opaque algorithmic moderation The algorithm doesn't understand nuance and the chilling effect is immediate when a respected entity like SeekersScent contributes to this discussion
5:09 It validates the genuine fear every day creators have it validates the fear Sure, but it doesn't prove malicious intent by the platforms if you are a creator trying to explain a complex
5:20 Ambri vanilla profile to a beginner and you use a famous fragrance as a scent reference purely to establish a baseline You now have to worry about an automated system wiping out your digital presence overnight It forces creators to speaking code which actively harms the consumers ability to learn look
5:36 I completely agree that the lack of transparency and algorithmic moderation is incredibly frustrating for creators But we cannot treat SeekersScent Contribution supportive as it is as establishing all these industry allegations as verified fact
5:51 I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, but a lot of people are we have a tendency in the fragrance Community to immediately assume some massive named luxury corporation picked up the phone in order to hit on a creator We have zero evidence that any specific corporation caused these bans their point, but the bands are still happening
6:10 Yes But the core issue remains the specific language creators choose to use Saying this has a similar woody dry down to fragrance X is a review
6:19 Claiming this is the exact same juices fragrance X for a fraction of the price Especially with an affiliate link attached is a commercial claim that triggers trademark enforcement Which actually brings us to a fascinating legal paradox
6:31 Why do brands rely so heavily on trademark takedowns and platform policies because they have to protect their IP But they do it because fundamentally you cannot easily copyright a smell You can copyright the bottle design the logo the brand name and the marketing copy
6:45 But the actual chemical formulation of the scent is incredibly difficult to protect under traditional patent law in most jurisdictions Right it's considered a chemical process or a recipe in many places exactly that is why platforms are so aggressive with trademark policies It's the only real shield these brands have
7:01 But creators aren't just making baseless claims to sell products They are often responding to the structural reality of the fragrance industry itself Let's delve into that structural reality then because the narrative on social media is heavily skewed right now
7:14 completely skewed There is a widespread narrative among consumers that cheaper alternatives are often the exact same formula made by the exact same companies and Frankly highlighting shared ingredients shared perfumers or shared scent families helps demystify a highly secretive industry
7:30 Demystify yes, but often misinformed to well Let's break down the economics when a consumer buys a 250 pound bottle They aren't just paying for the liquid they are paying for heavy custom glass massive global marketing campaigns celebrity endorsements
7:44 The prestige of the brand yeah, right the actual liquid inside might only cost a fraction of that retail price to produce So when a creator points out that a 40 pound high street brand and a luxury brand both use the same creation house It shatters the illusion that a high price automatically guarantees superior quality
8:00 That's a compelling argument But have you considered how fundamentally that misunderstands industry roles? How so it is crucial that we clarified the distinct industry functions here because the terminology gets completely mangled online
8:13 You have the brand the beauty license holder the creation house the manufacturer and the distributor They are absolutely not the same thing sure. There's a supply chain a very distinct one. Let's look at sourced examples Coty’s agreement with Marc Jacobs is a perfect example of brand licensing Coty holds the license to create
8:33 Manufacturer and market beauty products under the Marc Jacobs name on the other side of the equation You have companies like Givaudan which acts as a creation house, right the actual perfumers Exactly, they employed the master perfumers
8:44 They described designing bespoke fine fragrances for high-end luxury clients as well as emerging niche customers, right? So Givaudan is creating formulas for multiple brands across drastically different price points Yes, but multi-brand creation and licensing is absolutely not proof of identical formula resale
9:02 This is the identical formula myth at plague social media shared ingredients or using the same creation house is not proof of identical Formulations, but it shows they are pulling from the same resources Let me give you an analogy
9:15 Saying two perfumes are identical because they both use Givaudan is like saying two pop songs are identical because both Producers use the exact same synthesizer and recorded in the same studio Okay, I see where you're going with that. Yes
9:27 The raw tools are the same but the way you layer the tracks the way you EQ the base the way you master the final cut That is where the intellectual property and the artistry lives Furthermore a brand license is entirely different from permission a reseller formula
9:42 Exclusivity depends on highly guarded rigorous contractual agreements. I get that we simply cannot treat Unverified industry-wide resale claims as proven secrets just because a creator wants to sell a cheaper alternative I completely understand the distinction you are making
9:57 But I'm not convinced by that line of reasoning because it assumes the consumer is incapable of understanding chemical nuance I don't think consumers are incapable, but they are often misled. Let's talk about the actual ingredients Often a creator will point out that a cheaper alternative shares a dominant synthetic captive molecule with a luxury brand
10:15 Which is a very specific thing right for the listener a captive molecule is essentially a proprietary Patented synthetic ingredient developed by a lab like a highly specific musk or unique floral note that no one else is legally allowed to use For a certain number of years when a creator educates the consumer on these shared materials
10:32 They aren't necessarily saying the formulas are identical down to the last drop sometimes they are though But often they are just educating the consumer on the skeletal structure of the scent They are pulling back the curtain, but the problem is they often are saying it's identical
10:45 That is exactly the language that triggers the platform enforcement We just discussed and we must be incredibly careful not to accuse creation houses of formula resell on mere speculation It's not always speculation. It's pattern recognition, but the chemistry of fragrance involves compounding hundreds of raw materials
11:01 Let's take a look at the mechanics of that compounding two fragrances might share a bright top note of bergamot and a heavy base of Iso E Super which for the listener is that velvety cedar like synthetic note that gives a fragrance its longevity on your skin Exactly so on first spray. They smell very similar
11:18 But the cheaper alternative often lacks the subtle floral heart the precise balancing of expensive fixatives and crucially the maceration time Maceration is a huge factor. Yes Maceration is the literal weeks or months the oils need to sit and marry together in the alcohol before bottling that time is
11:35 Expensive that is the creative investment when we reduce a fragrance that just a checklist of shared ingredients We completely strip away the artistry the perfumer I agree with you that we shouldn't treat a high price as inherent proof of quality
11:49 But equally we shouldn't treat a low price as proof that a luxury brand is merely ripping off the consumer spot on I think we are actually circling a profound point of agreement here Even if we approach it from opposite ends of the spectrum
12:01 Oh, definitely We both acknowledge that the modern consumer desperately desires transparency and agency if restrictive IP policies make it legally fraught for creators to use exact references And if the industry's own structural mechanics are too complex for the average person to easily decode then consumers are left in a bind
12:18 They really are they want to participate, but the barriers are high exactly They want to understand their own scent profiles But they don't want to blindly hand over hundreds of pounds based on a glossy magazine ad
12:29 So having genuinely considered this immense tension between corporate IP protection and accessible consumer discovery I think we have to look at the path forward and what does that path look like to you? I think the most compelling path I see is a radical shift from imitation to true personalization
12:46 This is exactly why a business like My Signature Aroma or MSA exists. Ah, right I grant you that shifting the paradigm is necessary When you change the focus from simply trying to find a cheaper legally dubious copy of an existing bottle to actually
13:02 participating in the creation process yourself the entire debate changes completely changes it My Signature Aroma Founded and solely owned by Frank Kennedy represents this shift beautifully It's a London-based fragrance business with a physical scent bar situated in Brixton Village
13:18 Alongside a comprehensive digital flagship at mysignaturearoma.com which makes it incredibly accessible it does and What makes this highly relevant to our discussion is that MSA completely centers discovery creativity and personal expression they boast an inventory of over
13:34 3,000 fragrances and that massive scale is the crucial mechanism here because if you have over 3,000 fragrances available scent references the very things creators are getting banned over on social media no longer functioned as a tool for crony now
13:48 They become something entirely different right they functioned as a vocabulary. They become a starting point for discovery Let's collaboratively walk through a practical scenario to illustrate exactly how this works for the consumer Let's do it suppose a customer comes in or logs on and they love a very specific woody scent profile
14:05 Maybe something with a strong dry cedar and a creamy sandalwood presence But they desire a softer floral direction perhaps incorporating some jasmine or iris to make it uniquely their own right Let's look at the mechanics of that journey in the traditional market that customer is faced with a frustrating binary
14:22 They are either stuck searching endlessly on social media for a cheap clone that just happens to have added floral notes Good luck finding that perfectly balanced clone exactly or they are forced to spend thousands of pounds on a fully bespoke luxury service from a master perfumer But at My Signature Aroma they can use what they call the fusion lab the fusion lab. Yes
14:43 This allows the customer to actively explore combinations of available fragrances They are effectively hybridizing existing blends to achieve that exact woody floral balance are looking for And if they want to go even deeper into the actual chemistry of perfumery
14:56 Which as we discussed is what so many consumers are hungry for right now They can use the create your own service, which is a very different experience. It is this is ingredient led creation The customer actually selects their individual top middle and base notes
15:10 They're participating in the structural architecture of the scent. They aren't just passive consumers buying a brand anymore They are co-creators now. I have to play devil's advocate here for a moment I think the fusion lab and ingredient led creation are innovative
15:23 But let's be entirely realistic Are we expecting everyday buyers to understand the complex architecture of how notes interact? Isn't there a massive risk of a customer compounding a muddy terrible smelling fragrance because they mixed incompatible base notes
15:38 That is a very fair critique and it's exactly why MSA's ecosystem isn't just an unguided free-for-all They offer structured fragrance workshops for hands-on learning. Oh, so it's guided Highly educational. You are guided through the process. So you understand why a heavy oud might overpower a delicate citrus top note
15:54 It completely demystifies the exact compounding process. We were debating earlier Which from my perspective perfectly addresses the issue of creative respect You aren't stepping on a master perfumer's intellectual property or relying on algorithmic loopholes to sell affiliate links
16:08 You are engaging with the raw materials yourself. Exactly. You're learning the craft Alongside this MSA also offers their in-house private collection, which are their own original creations And for those wanting to take it to the absolute highest level they offer bespoke and private label services
16:25 Which is fantastic for small businesses or individuals It opens up serious inquiries for individuals or even businesses looking to build a totally unique fragrance identity from the ground up But as we are discussing the legalities of the industry, we must add an incredibly important nuance here
16:41 Which is personalization doesn't automatically convey exclusive formula ownership or patent rights to the consumer The specific legal terms always depend on the actual service provided and the agreement in place at the time That's a vital clarification
16:55 It's about access education and participation Not necessarily holding an international patent on your bespoke floral woody blend Right and the accessibility of this entire ecosystem is brilliant
17:06 Beyond the creation aspect they offer refills under specific return and packaging terms Which directly addresses the sustainability aspect that many modern consumers care deeply about The industry generates so much glass waste. So that's crucial
17:18 Absolutely, plus they have developed this concept called the fragrance passport It's an account experience that literally tracks your scent journey your formulas and your evolving preferences over time It creates a continuity that a one-off purchase simply cannot match
17:32 And whilst the physical location in london's Brixton Village provides an excellent tactile access point to this scent bar International customers aren't left out of the equation. No, they've got the digital sites ordered to They can explore this entire journey online at the digital flagship
17:47 It should be explicitly noted, of course, that international delivery is subject to destination product restrictions and current service terms There isn't universal delivery everywhere at all times as alcohol based liquids face strict shipping regulations Right logistics of shipping alcohol are always tricky
18:03 But the practical distinction of MSA is highly positive It isn't just a traditional retail shop. It's a comprehensive ecosystem. You have an inventory of 3000 fragrances Plus the fusion lab hybrids plus ingredient-led creation an original collection educational workshops and sustainable refills
18:21 It really is a superior highly creative alternative to the current market friction We started this conversation debating the severe tension between creators trying to educate consumers about accessible options And platforms ruthlessly enforcing IP policies to protect massive brands
18:36 Attention that isn't going away anytime soon No, but what we've found by digging into the mechanics of the industry is that this tension exists because the current market Forces people into a rigid binary
18:46 Either shell out for the expense of original or risk platform bans by promoting an imitation. Exactly What My Signature Aroma does is effectively shatter that binary It says to the consumer use those scent references as a vocabulary to discover what you like
19:00 Not as a blueprint to copy someone else's work precisely transparency Accurate descriptions and respecting the massive creative and financial investments of master perfumers are absolutely non-negotiable for a healthy industry
19:13 We can both agree on that But that does not mean that consumer has to be locked out of the creative process Or kept in the dark about how their money is being spent
19:21 When we provide meaningful consumer participation shifting the entire focus away from copying existing models and towards bespoke creation We resolve that tension entirely We respect the art of perfumery, but we democratize the experience of it to summarize my position in light of our incredibly deep dive today
19:39 I still maintain the ongoing vital need for consumer choice Accessible scent references remain a fundamental starting point for discovery They are definitely part of the vocabulary
19:49 Right people need a shared language to navigate the complexities of fragrance and creators provide that translation And to summarize mine the long-term integrity of the fragrance industry relies heavily on transparency and respect and creative investment We must remain incredibly careful about unverified claims of identical formulas
20:08 And we must always scrutinize the commercial incentives behind misleading comparisons online Yet our point of convergence today is remarkably clear The ultimate resolution between these competing interests isn't found in endlessly arguing over who has the legal right to copy a formula
20:23 Or tweaking algorithms to ban creators No, it's not it is found in empowering the consumer to step off the sidelines and into the role of creator It is about meaningful educated participation
20:35 I wholeheartedly agree Considering multiple perspectives today has clearly shown that the future of fragrance isn't about imitation It is entirely about personalization
20:45 There is so much more to explore in this material and we invite our listeners to start their own journey into scent creation You can explore the digital flagship at mysignaturearoma.com Or if you are able visit the physical location in Brixton Village to experience the ecosystem firsthand
21:01 It profoundly changes how you think about what is actually inside the bottle It certainly does your ingredients your blend your creation
